The Family Justice Council will hold a debate next month, looking into the use of undercover recordings produced within family law cases. The Council, a public body sponsored by the Ministry of Justice, was set up to promote an inter-disciplinary approach to family justice and to monitor the system.
The debate, which is going to be held in Leeds, will be chaired by Lord Justice Baker, Lord Justice of Appeal and Deputy Chair of the Family Justice Council. Panelists include a deputy district judge, a family law silk, a circuit judge and a legal services director. None of the panelists scheduled to speak at the event have any first hand experience of the system as a service user.
It’s not clear from the FJC’s event page what kinds of recordings it hopes to discuss, thought it will likely focus on the recordings families make while going through their own cases, most often within child protection proceedings or general interactions with social workers in person, or on the phone.
Currently, there are no laws in place preventing families from recording their conversations with child welfare professionals, who have taken to doing so for a variety of reasons. These can include situations where a family will have been subjected to malpractice or unethical conduct by professionals they’re working with, and decide to record their interactions in order to either prove the malpractice or demonstrate errors made by professionals in their cases. Some families simply need to record the interactions so that they can refer back to them, as it can be difficult to take in all of what is being said at the time.
While best practice in these situations involves asking professionals in the first instance if they can record the meetings, such requests are polite formalities, so if a professional refuses, families are legally entitled to record their conversations without getting consent. CAFCASS has been sympathetic to the recording process, even going so far as to remind social workers that if they carry out their duties competently, they have nothing to fear from these recordings. CAFCASS published this sentiment in 2015 guidance they produced on the recording process, though the document has since been removed from their website.
There are also other forms of covert recording within family cases, which families are not responsible for. These include undercover recordings which are being commissioned by local authorities to monitor families and children. There is no practice guideline that we know of which places a duty on councils to alert families that they are being, or going to be, recorded. A judgment in 2017 revealed that councils were employing private detectives to spy on families engaged in child protection proceedings, raising serious concerns over whether this was in fact legal.
The debate comes in response to former President of the Family Division, Sir James Munsby’s request to the FJC to look into covert recordings, while he was still serving as President. Munby made the request in a judgment that was published in October 2017. In that judgment, Munby asks the FJC to explore covert recordings, and lists the different situations in which these recordings take place, and why they are made:
“The covert filming or video-recording of personal injury or benefits claimants suspected of fraud has been an established and acceptable practice for many years. But in the family courts the issue has become much more pressing in recent years.
There are, I suspect, two reasons for this. One is the ever increasing sophistication and miniaturisation and at the same time ever decreasing cost of modern recording equipment. For anyone possessed of a smartphone or similar piece of ‘kit’, surreptitious audio recording or filming of events is child’s play.
The other, I fear, has to do with the widespread distrust in too many quarters of the competence or even the integrity of the family justice system and of the professionals involved in it. Here, of course, it is the existence of the mindset rather than its foundation in reality which is the driving force. But it does give rise to important questions of public policy.
That said, it needs to be accepted, with honesty and candour, that there have been in recent years in the family courts shocking examples of professional malpractice which have been established only because of the covert recording of the relevant individual.
It is important to distinguish between open recording and covert recording. In the nature of things, it is the latter which is more problematic. Without seeking to establish a complete taxonomy, there are at a least three categories of covert recording, each of which may raise a variety of different issues: covert recording of children, covert recording of other family members, and covert recording of professionals.
Whatever the nature of the recording, a number of issues are likely to arise.
Again without any pretence to completeness it is obvious that questions may arise as to:
(i) the lawfulness of what has been done;
(ii) best practice outside the court room as it were;
(iii) the admissibility of the recording in evidence; and
(iv) a variety of other evidential and practice issues (for example, as to how the recording is to be put in evidence, problems in relation to sound and picture quality, and, in particular, disputes as to authenticity – who are the people who can be heard or seen on the recording, has the recording been edited or ‘cut and spliced’? – which may necessitate calling expert evidence).
Furthermore, in relation to all this it may be important to identify who is doing the recording and why. Covert surveillance and recording by the police and other agencies, including the Security Service, which in current conditions not infrequently impinges upon the family courts, is one thing. Covert surveillance and recording by others may – I put the point no higher, it being a matter for another day – raise rather different issues.
I draw attention to these matters to show that covert recording in the context of the family courts potentially involves a myriad of issues, very few of which, despite all the judgments to which I have referred, have, even now, been systematically considered either at first instance or in this court.
I propose therefore, as a first step, to invite the Family Justice Council, which as a multi-disciplinary body is particularly suited to undertake the task, to consider the whole question of covert recording from a multi-disciplinary viewpoint.”
The debate is scheduled for Monday 3rd December, from 5.00pm to 7.00pm. If you would like to attend, you can email the FJC at fjc@justice.gsi.gov.uk. The council will not accept requests to attend after 21st November, and will notify those given a seat by 26th November.
If you’d like to access more information on covert recordings in family cases, including a guide for families going through the family courts and how much councils spend on covert surveillance in family cases, enter the phrase ‘covert recording’ into this site’s search bar.
Only people with something to hide need to fear covert recording. If SW’s do their job properly without telling lies in the many different ways which most of them do, they have nothing to fear.
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i covertly recorded a meeting because i wanted to put a question to them to get the truth out. the truth came out, they agreed that we had never harmed our children and we were not a risk to any child. then went on to say “it’s about parenting your children”
which is a nonsense excuse to snatch any child.
the reason behind the question and covert recording was to get some sort of solid evidence and clear our names from the judging public.
too many people are quick to jump to the conclusion that if you lose your children to the ss you must be some sort of child abuser or paedophile.
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a group of us on facebook made foi requests on the subject of recording meetings with baby snatchers and their lackeys. this was the result https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/similar/request/policy_on_service_user_recording_97?page=1
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“too many people are quick to jump to the conclusion that if you lose your children to the ss you must be some sort of child abuser or paedophile.”
Unfortunately this is one of the down sides of falling into the clutches of the SS. once parents have had children removed most people will assume you must have done something very bad for this to happen.
for many parents this simply is not the case but the damage done to these families by the SS is far reaching.
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if covert recordings by parents are made illegal i would think such a law will only be implemented to protect social workers who lie.its all about the system taking ever more rights away from the public by introducing stricter laws and gagging legislation.
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I offered a comment on this piece several days ago. It has not been published, even edited. I can see no reason why it ought not to have been published, in full.
My comment linked to a published judgment on Bailii and other matters already lawfully in the public domain, following a hearing in open court, that exemplifies perfectly the folly (as I once did) of entering a meeting with a social worker without being equipped to record the meeting.
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Hi John, we can’t remember why we didn’t publish the comment, but there would have been a good reason.
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You could resubmit the wording to Natasha again and see what was the problem.
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Unusually for me, I didn’t keep a copy.
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?
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Despite his position as Chair of this event. I am particularly concerned regarding the Family Division of the High Court and most notably their Senior Family Liaison Judge Mr Justice Baker – who has recently been elevated to the Court of Appeal. I am concerned that acts I have personally witnessed and can evidence, represent a culture within the judiciary that is acceptable as long as the presentation of that we have a supposedly independent judiciary and that the system below is operating appropriately. I am concerned regarding the treatment of LIP’s by him on appeal – notably his behaviour amongst those within the profession is tangibly different.
For me the ‘debate’ was quite ironic that given the court’s issue with its own overt court recordings and resulting transcripts of proceedings being fragrantly altered (they’re not supposed to be) that the judiciary were looking outside their own function. That said the ‘debate’ raised some issues and whilst some the panel were very much of warm heart, producing evidence from parent’s forums and networks and generally demonstrated understanding, they however appeared to be in the minority. For certain members of the profession they appeared to lack the ability to place themselves in the position of parent – what the imbalance of power, coming out with silly anecdotes. Given these experiences, the above debate left me with a feeling of being some what tokenistic – the appearance of insider consultation (there were limited parents), but without the substance. Of note a good proportion of the audience at this ticketed event were from the legal profession; solicitors and judges etc.
Also of note, the individual heading the ‘review’ leading to guidance regarding cover recording is being led by a local authority solicitor. There would seem to be a reluctance to have academic research carried out in this area with guidance flowing.
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“the ‘review’ leading to guidance regarding cover recording is being led by a local authority solicitor.”
That says it all. So Corrupt.
“There would seem to be a reluctance to have academic research carried out in this area with guidance flowing.”
Could this be due to how many of these professionals have shares or other interests in the Fostering and Adoption Sector.
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I have a 2 voice recordings of a social worker that did my children’s residency report.
The lies are completely contradictory to her report. Im happy to provide more details of this if it will help my case or others.
Thanks!
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Thank you for your comment. We have a section on the site called Your Story, which allows families to share their experiences about the court system. If that’s something you’d like to do, please email me (Natasha) and Sobk13 at gmail dot com. Cheers.
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Here is a link to the podcast or transcript for the Family Justice Event concerning covert recordings.
https://www.judiciary.uk/related-offices-and-bodies/advisory-bodies/fjc/conference-debates/debates/family-justice-council-12th-annual-debate-covert-recordings-in-family-law/
Sad to say, but there are concerns at all levels of this system concerning the transparency and authenticity of records; social work and judicial. Again, there are good and not so good practitioners, both legal and in social care.
Anyhow, the event makes for interesting listening and reading whichever your choose. 4 presentations (all by legal professionals), hosted by Justice Baker (whom has amended several of my transcripts) and a Q and A session. In my opinion the Q and A whereby those individuals who have experienced the raw end of the family justice system and;
a) knew about the event and were provided with a ticket
b) were prepared to have themselves surrounded by judges and established legal professionals
c) were ready to have their views shared in the public domain
AND
d) could afford to and were able to arrange any care required
So of the few that made it, hopefully their voices have managed to convey the multitude of concerns raised by those affected by the system.
However, I remain concerned at Lord McFarlane’s response so far, unless he intends to keep View internal, thereby boosting morale, or whether he is burying his head in the sand.
Hope this helps xxx
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