Welcome to another week.
Our question this week stems from a truly shocking child protection case which saw a psychiatrist heavily distort a mother’s answers to questions he put to her, and even manufactured answers to questions he never asked. The psychiatrist had used inaccurate information and quotes the mother never made to paint a very negative picture of her, and even went so far as to fabricate entire conversations in order to produce his report.
In this case, the mother had recorded the interview and was able to produce the recording in court to show that she was telling the truth.
There is an excellent summary of the case, with the relevant passages highlighted over at the very good Suspicious Minds for anyone who would like to explore the facts further.
This recent case raises a very important question about the use of recording equipment during child protection interviews and meetings. We already know from Professor Ireland’s pioneering research that a significant number of Family Court experts producing psychological reports fall below the accepted standards of professional practice, which is hugely concerning. After eight years of assisting parents, Researching Reform always advises that meetings are recorded (for guidance on recording interviews and meetings please see our previous post).
A Human Rights question is also raised in this case. Everyone in the UK Family Court has the right to a fair hearing, a right which is fundamental to the rule of law, and democracy. In part this requires that the hearing must be before an independent and impartial court, however difficulties arise when a parent contests an expert’s report and tries to tell the court that their answers have been wrongly written down, misinterpreted or even fabricated.
As Suspicious Minds rightly points out:
Let us be honest – if the mother simply asserted that she had not said this, and had not tape-recorded the sessions, who would have been believed?
Solutions to these problems must surely involve better monitoring of experts before they enter the system to ensure they are both properly qualified and competent. But perhaps they should also include accurate recordings of meetings in order to ensure best practice and effective outcomes for children and families.
There are though, potential pitfalls to recording interviews particularly if they involve children in some way. For instance, if children know their interviews are going to be recorded they may feel less able to be honest with the interviewing psychiatrist where there is the possibility that those interviews may be played back in court in front of their parents.
Our question to you then, is just this: do you think all assessments and interviews within child protection cases should be recorded?
A big thank you to Dana for alerting us to this case.
Maggie Tuttle said:
Natasha, I have said and written to governments for years stating and asking that all assessments should be recorded, as in the family courts it is ALL HEAR SAY, but then we have one children’s lawyer who said all evidence is irrelivent we are in family courts not criminal courts, there is not a hope in hell for the children and families, and I hear from so many families who supposedly are this that or other, so in the family courts on hear say only most of the experts and the whole bloody army in a child’s best interest are the gods to them selves, and another kid is lost in the system only to end up on the streets and abused in every way, look at the poor abused victims does governments think they are all hear say, is that why millions are set aside for the meetings and at the end of the meetings such as Lady Macur said 700 victims no case to answer,
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Maggie Tuttle said:
Natasha, a thought which I think is very important for every court case and it could bring change to the family courts, that being all legal teams acting for the families in the court should question more into the court experts and as I am aware all legal people have to pay governments every year for a licence to work, it is time they all came together as one to fight the system not on hear say
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Marilyn Hawes said:
ABSOLUTELY they should all be recorded. The family courts are a law unto themselves and inhuman where innocent Mums are over ridden very often by Judges who seem to have little idea of how coercive controllers operate and the child remains at risk!! EVERY week we deal with monstrous injustices; Across the UK the system is unfit for purpose including social services who time and again ” lose ” documents and should anyone dare to challenge their decisions or complain, the threat of removing your child is ever present
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Mike said:
I think you meant to say “Innocent dads” because everyone knows that females get everything handed to them in ‘their’ divorce including the kids which will net them 18+ years of free monthly extortion payments. There is a very good reason why it’s called “Mothers-Court”.
If we are going to fix the corrupt courts, we must not continue to always favor the person with the vagina.
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Maggie Tuttle said:
I tell most families to go through their bundles of papers and find the evidence them selves of the lies told then to bring charges of perjury, some families have told me the police will not support them, others have said we are to scared, I always say scared of what you have lost your child you have nothing to lose go after corrupt experts. But many families live in hope of getting their kids back and do nothing, so lets get the legal teams to do it because the likes of Munby goes no where, he is the same as Goddard Macur and the rest of them all HEAR SAY.
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l8in said:
Reblogged this on L8in.
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Forced Adoption said:
I agree that interviws with psys should be recorded .However ,a simpler solution to the problem of crackpot psys saying parents are even crazier than they are would be for parents to have the right to choose their OWN psy recommended by their own doctor to say whether or not they are a danger to their children.Complete strangers these psys who read the social worker’s reports before even seeing the parent are biased and sometimes rely on those reports without seeing the parents at all !
Parents should be able to choose their own qualified expert !
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ladyportia27 said:
Exactly. In our own case the psych called me to say she could not do the assessment as the social worker had just called her telling her what to write. At least she was truthful.
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keith said:
did the social worker not get reported to the Health and care professions council or the police ?
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Maggie Tuttle said:
you are correct independent Psycos but do remember the social all over the country have their own Psycos they work with as we know keep it in the family.
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ladyportia27 said:
Yes all assessments should be recorded as proof of truth.
Many times on reading reports- you ask- who is s/he talking about here?
I remember reading my own from a psychologist – she said I arrived drunk. I asked for a police test – as I do not drink. She blew it off and said no its OK….but she still put it in the report.
Of course i should have called police and got tested…but I was naieve back then.
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Maggie Tuttle said:
well at least you were supposedly only drunk, not like me alcoholic and a drug user, boy I wish I could take both or even one then I could forget the corruption in the courts and the bloody rest of them, but I will continue without to fight for the children screaming to be heard, on that point as I know most parents and grandparents are put down as alcoholics and drug users, surly the bloody judges should pick up on that point , or maybe they all watch the Jeramy Kyle program
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keith said:
totally agree all meetings with social workers, psychologists and others should be recorded. this would vastly cut down the lied scattered throughout case files etc. the children are the biggest and most vulnerable victims because they are on their own with nobody to talk to about their views and worries.they only have the social worker and we all know how many of those have been exposed for lying in case files etc. i say record All meetings.
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keith said:
i would also say that all phone calls should be recorded. we had the calls to our son stopped by the social worker after the foster carer told lies about us saying we had upset him on the phone. even the social worker had said things in phone calls but denied it later.
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Roger Crawford said:
I think another question that should be asked is WHY did this psychologist do this? And now that it has been proved he (or she) lied, perhaps past cases that this person dealt with should be reviewed too. This person should be brought to Court over this and made to give evidence on oath.
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neverforgetneversurrender said:
They did it beacuse SS pays them to.
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Natasha said:
Thank you so much for your comments. So far, posters have suggested recording should be standard for assessments of this nature and even for phone calls in this context. You have also suggested we allow parents to choose their own experts with the help of their family doctors and that all meetings not just psychiatric assessments, should be recorded in family court.
Should we also allow discretion to redact or edit these recordings for court purposes, either to protect victims of domestic violence or vulnerable children and if so, could we do this in a transparent and ethical way?
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daveyone1 said:
Reblogged this on World4Justice : NOW! Lobby Forum..
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Beds Mens Forum said:
Good advice here and I would say covert recording is the norm now and this article gives legitimacy to that.
There was a case of harassment by a Judge against his secretary of sexual harassment at work and she covertly recorded his advances, no mention was made it being inappropriate.
Just don’t do what a friend did and managed to play the recording back while still in the meeting with the SS, most embarrassing!
http://www.familylawweek.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed160225
Covert Recording by Parents – Nothing to Fear but the Truth?
Farooq Ahmed, barrister of Westgate Chambers and recorder, addresses the legal issues arising when parents embroiled in children proceedings record conversations or events.
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neverforgetneversurrender said:
If I had any idea I could record every conversation and report I would have. I’m so glad these sick people finally got discovered. I’d advise anyone dealing with these people to record the promises and lies these people spit out.
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Mike said:
A better question is, why isn’t this happening already? Nobody understands this simple premise? We actually have to ask if this ‘might’ be a good thing? With lives at stake, the answer is not only yes, but HELL YES!!! The corrupt court is not allowing this because they do not want to be found out with all their malphesance. Could this be anymore obvious?
And yet we allow them to get away with it…
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keith said:
We dont allow them to get away with it. its more a case that nobody wants to know about corruption withing the family courts between judges and the SS. i think the general thought of Govt is that there cant be any truth to this so lets not jump to conclusions. catch 22 all the way. you cant uncover a crime unless you investigate. simple enough but it aint happening.
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dandymanyahoocouk said:
When and if there is a proper investigation into how corrupt, inhumane, prejudicial and unjust Family Court {CoP as well} is.. then and only then.. the world will be shocked once it is discovered
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Mike said:
“Let us be clear, the removal of fathers from the lives of their children is … public … policy“. -Robert Franklin ICMI-14
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neverforgetneversurrender said:
The forced removal of children from both their parents is public policy. It’s a forgone conclusion. You get the wrong social worker, the wrong lawyer, the wrong judge, and it’s all over. You are guilty unless you can prove yourself innocent and the ability to record these people just might give some of us the ability. I’m sorry your ex took you to the cleaners, but men aren’t alone in this. Yes my husband is a victim, but so am I and so are our very female children. Hating people just like you won’t help.
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dandymanyahoocouk said:
Had I not gone out and get the compelling Evidence that the assessment is full of LIES.. Those LIES would have been accepted as TRUTH. Once they all colluded to cut me down to zero.. everything they did backfired.. and they now refuses to listen and apologise. They told me to “Go Away” and do come back.. This is what they call Democracy!!! I have a Right to take it further and QUESTION IT.. DON’T I??
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dandymanyahoocouk said:
Of course Assessments should be recorded as well as Attendance Notes, Advocate and SW’s interviews with the vulnerable. The prejudiced assessors wrote some reprehensible and WRONG information in the blanket assessment to degrade me but, once I responded by getting letters from businesses, families and college to show that it was all WRONG and LIES, the Litigation Friend found a way to duck and dive, cut corners and cover it up rater than apologise. If the assessment was recorded that would have been significant for us {Family and him} but, unfortunately.. “Hearsay Evidence” is more important than “The Truth”. Ask any Family Court Judge for confirmation while they talk of ‘Transparency and Fairness behind Hitler’s Closed Secret Doors”. WHERE IS IT??
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Dana said:
All meetings with “experts” should be recorded just like the police do when interviewing possible criminals.
He who pays the piper, calls the tune!
Social workers, experts, paid for by the LA, build a case against you! Not only are you disadvantaged because you don’t have the knowledge of the law, or how to put forward your case, but anything you say is disbelieved automatically. How is it in the majority of cases all the experts reports are carbon copies? None are independent but work together. How many pieces of evidence are cherry picked over to give a result they want? How many Judges collude with them, knowing they simple rubber-stamp the well worn path of taking a child into care? How many don’t conform to proper procedures but get away with it? How many are truly qualified to make decisions that effect the whole families lives? How many back track when a mistake is made?
The whole child protection format is flawed! There is no accountability from the professionals! You can’t really argue your case in court without spending with the taxpayers money or your own savings, but rarely “win”. The law of averages would produce some wins but not in family court.
Why isn’t this “expert” arrested on a charge of perjury, perverting the course of justice? All his cases should be re-evalued but that’s not going to happen because it opens up the way for all such cases to be reopened. Odd how a criminal can have his/her case opened and reassessed but a child in care can’t!
This lady did the right thing, otherwise she couldn’t have proved he was lying! It should be mandatory in all meetings with all professionals. Why, because frankly, they all lie!
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dandymanyahoocouk said:
The most horrific thing is today we have the Care Act 2014/15, ADDAS, the TCDB, the DoH, the NHS and the LGA all making holistic, humane proposals in line with article: 8 of the ECHR. These Publications “clearly” highlights “Family involvement” in the LD/Autistic loved one’s lives and this is blatantly being ignored by Family Court Judges, Local Authorities, so-called Independent SW’s and the Official Solicitor. Why can’t these Bodies interact with Parliament and have Family Court Judges show RESPECT to Family? The Judges makes their OWN LAWS.
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Dana said:
Sorry, forgot to mention the Judge in my case refused to allow me to record the meeting HE requested that I had with a social worker. He would only agree to minutes being taken by a different social worker. Needless to say her report was different to what was said and they refused to put minutes in writing as her writing was unreadable! A little truth mixed in makes it so much more credible for the court!!
For something so important to the family the professionals behave so badly but they can as they are never taken to task. The Judge excused the social worker who lied in court stating she misunderstood and was under pressure! So why is the same not said of parents losing their child, or grandparents losing their grandchildren who are under greater pressure, with a lot of distress mixed it! They certainly are misunderstood!
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katherine mccourt said:
YES of course they should be recorded the so called expert lied and fabricated in my case and even said he was ‘chartered’ when he’s not reported this to judge but she still would not ‘discharge the order’ they don’t even have the GP’s report they are hit men for the social workers they write whatever they want them to write its fraud and right to fair trial is denied an absolute disgrace the whole system stinks.
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Natasha said:
Thank you to everyone who has been posting, lots of thought provoking comments. Further to these, another issue to contemplate: should the recordings be visual, or just audio?
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neverforgetneversurrender said:
Video and audio so that it can be shown in court that sw’s bully parents. Threats are not only verbal. There is body langue that comes into play and on video you can clearly see a parent cowering as they are backed into a corner. Video doesn’t show that. You can see an hear exactly what’s happening and what is being said. You can see the tears and torment on the faces of parents who according to the reports have no emotional connection to their children, or the fear in the children’s eyes as they are being placed in a strangers car and ripped away from the life and love they have had since birth. so yes video and audio at all times!
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keith said:
yes video & audio should be standard as the lies written about parents by social workers and others is a damn disgrace and nothing short of a violation of human rights yet they are allowed to do what they like with no intervention from anywhere. Teflon Don springs to mind. Cash for kids needs serious investigation. i think they will be shocked with what they would find.
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dandymanyahoocouk said:
We the aggrieved who has experienced such vile injustice must be hurt to read how highly acclaimed British Law standard is expressed in this publication. It states “The justice system in England and Wales is internationally revered as one of the finest in the world; our strong and independent judiciary, world-class legal profession and adherence to the rule of law are the basis of a civilized society and strong economy”. Nothing can be further from “the Truth”. THIS IS SIMPLY WRONG.
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Richard Grenville said:
All Family Court proceedings should be video-recorded and copies given to the litigants at the end of each day of sitting.so they have a record of the evidence of that day and could re-visit certain evidence which was not clear. They are often prevented from appealing Court decisions in Australia as it can take over six months to obtain transcripts and the costs are often around $8000 [4200 pounds] which can also be prohibitive.
Audio-recording meetings with social workers should be automatic, each person in any meeting has the right top record it in their own way, social workers preferring to take written notes but parents cannot take such notes whilst they are fully engaged in the meeting and discussions and are therefore seriously disadvantaged.
The whole system needs bringing into the 20th Century with the technology now at our disposal and it is archaic for Court proceedings to continue to be solely recorded by stenographer and then typed, and similarly with social worker notes, when most will have a audio-recording device on their mobile phones which would be far more efficient, and for parents to do the same.
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dandymanyahoocouk said:
Transforming our justice system:
Summary of reforms and consultation Presented to Parliament by the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice by Command of Her Majesty
September 2016.
Foreword:
Today the Lord Chancellor, Lord Chief Justice, and the Senior President of Tribunals have published a joint statement on their shared vision for the future of Her Majesty’s Courts & Tribunal Service. The justice system in England and Wales is internationally revered as one of the finest in the world; our strong and independent judiciary, world-class legal profession and adherence to the rule of law are the basis of a civilized society and strong economy. The Government is investing over £700m in the courts and tribunals and more than £270m in the criminal justice system, a sign of our commitment to building on our strengths and maintaining our international reputation. The world is moving on and our justice system must keep up to meet the changing needs and expectations of everyone who uses our courts and tribunals. The statement by the Lord Chancellor, Lord Chief Justice, and Senior President of Tribunals explains how the work we are doing will provide the public with a justice system that is:
• Just: decisions and outcomes are fair, the judiciary are supported by processes that are modern, transparent and consistent, and like cases are treated alike. A strong judiciary and meritocratic legal professions draw on the widest available pool of talents, to maintain public confidence and strengthen the rule of law.
• Proportionate: the cost, speed, complexity, and degree of adversarial protection make sense and are appropriate to the nature and value of the dispute at issue. An effective system will save people time and money, and shrink the impact of legal proceedings on their lives.
• Accessible: the system is affordable, intelligible and available for use by all, convenient for those who cannot easily attend in person, and supportive of those not comfortable with the law or technology.
In practice, these principles will deliver swift and certain justice.
The Ministry of Justice, in partnership with the judiciary, is working hard to ensure we can deliver the ambitious vision laid out by the Lord Chancellor, Lord Chief Justice, and Senior President of Tribunals today. Their joint statement demonstrates the strong and sustained commitment of the judiciary to supporting the reform programme, but it falls to the Ministry of Justice to develop and implement the policy proposals that will change the system and realise that vision. This document outlines what the Ministry of Justice is doing to achieve reform of the justice system, and invites the public and interested stakeholders to give their views on certain specific measures. Where required, we will bring forward legislation in due course.
Sir Oliver Heald QC MP Minister of State
9 4 Chapter Four:
Family
4.1 Family proceedings deal with some of the most sensitive issues in the justice system, including parental disputes over where children should live and spend their time, protecting vulnerable children from abuse and neglect, and dealing with divorce and separation. Since the Family Justice Review in 2011, there have been major reforms with the creation of the Single Family Court and changes to legal aid eligibility in private law cases4.
4.2 There is more work to be done, however, to make sure that the family justice system is tailored to the individual needs of the many people who use it, and to make sure that those people feel that their views are heard and considered in deciding the best outcome. We are working to consider what further changes are needed and will bring forward proposals in due course.
Contact details/How to respond
Please respond online at: https://consult.justice.gov.uk by 11.59pm on Thursday 27 October,
or send your response (also to arrive by Thursday 27 October)
to: Courts Reform Policy
Post Point 3.41 Ministry of Justice
102 Petty France
London SW1H 9AJ
Tel: 020 3334 3555
Email: CourtsReformPolicy@justice.gsi.gov.uk
Complaints or comments If you have any complaints or comments about the consultation process you should contact the Ministry of Justice at the above address.
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Dana said:
In the interests of transparency audio & visual recordings should be made. We have the technology and it should be used to prevent miscarriages of justice. It appears all the professionals have an agenda, be it “experts” paid by the LA to agree with them or the LA meeting government targets or even individual social workers with an axe to grind about their own childhood and you just happen to remind them of their own mother!
Recordings will prevent sloppy unprofessional work and weed out those “court experts” who write reports for the court that are unfounded and full of lies.
A further step would be to prosecute those found to have blatantly lied. That just might deter others who do the same. Those sentences should be steeper too as they are in a position of authority and have the power to wreck lives!
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dandymanyahoocouk said:
I 100% pc agree with you Dana. I also thinks that not only sloppy professionals should be prosecuted.. the main culprit is the prejudicial JUDGES as they encourages the LYING and gladly accepts it with both hands, not forgetting with a smile too . WE have No Legs to stand on with this kind of inhumane treatments and also face JAIL if we don’t accept it.
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keith said:
couldnt have said it better myself. Agree 100%.
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dandymanyahoocouk said:
DO YOU AGREE WITH THIS STATEMENT BY THE COMMITTEE “The justice system in England and Wales is internationally revered as one of the finest in the world; our strong and independent judiciary, world-class legal profession and adherence to the rule of law are the basis of a civilized society and strong economy”?
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Natasha said:
We’ve been asked by a reader to share his thoughts on his behalf:
Martin Wimsey says, “Never, can you imagine such records getting into the wrong hands, hacked or passed on by shady record keepers?”
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dandymanyahoocouk said:
The Law should be changed in that ALL Assessments MUST be Recorded and Video-taped to satisfy EVERYONE involved that what is written is in fact TRUE. And that is the pathway to Justice.
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Richard Grenville said:
In Australian Family Courts and under Family Law, the litigant has the rights to 1. Send 20 written questions to the `Expert’ when they receive their report and to receive answers before the Hearings; 2. Submit their own written Observations and Comments to the Court on the Report; 3. Question the expert during the course of the proceedings; 4. Seek leave of the Court for a Forensic Appraisal Review by a more eminent expert in that field regarding the contents of the report.
Of course none of this happens because it would delay proceedings and the fast-tracking of cases through the Courts.
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dandymanyahoocouk said:
Complaining on Facebook, Twitter, on here and having Protests are useless. I would like all Families who has suffered Injustice in the SECRET COURTS to write to the address CourtsReformPolicy@justice.gsi.gov.uk or write to the address given. COME ON PEOPLE.. THIS MIGHT BE OUR CHANCE TO GET OUR LOST CHILDREN BACK!
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neverforgetneversurrender said:
Thank you for this e-mail. I will write my families story and send it to them. I hope it will help! I haven’t spoken out much so far as I’m afraid of making my situation worse. We got lucky and were allowed an SGO instead of adoption. How ludicrous is that. An SGO is considered lucky…
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dandymanyahoocouk said:
The more distressed Families write in.the more chance we have of Family Law changes as they think that all is FINE but, IT IS NOT. Read the speech by the Lord Chancellor, Lord Chief Justice, and the Senior President of Tribunals. They state : “The justice system in England and Wales is internationally revered as one of the finest in the world; our strong and independent judiciary, world-class legal profession and adherence to the rule of law are the basis of a civilized society and strong economy”. THIS IS ALL WRONG. Go to the full article and read it all. We can change this Injustice maybe.
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dandymanyahoocouk said:
I cannot believe that only one person has vowed to write to CFS {MoJ} with their proposals/sufferings while there are so may people subscribed on here. It seems I am the only one maybe 100 pc behind this important drive to see Family Law change and get Justice. Natasha can you encourage people please! After all it is for their own interests.
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Natasha said:
Hi Dandyman, thank you for your posts. It’s not part of this forum’s ethos to try to coerce people into doing what I, or others might feel is in their best interests, so I’m afraid I won’t be doing that, but I hope you will continue to campaign yourself.
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dandymanyahoocouk said:
Thanks.. I will
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tummum said:
Reblogged this on tummum's Blog.
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B Reus said:
Yes, of course they should be recorded.
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